__alexander
Personally, I see the self-help industry dying because
people are starting to realize that it's just a network of
individuals selling products, promoting each other's
products, and creating new avenues to sell more products.
I refer to it as the "self-help mafia." Tim Ferriss kind
of created it.
|
> kdheiwns
Every time someone has said some goofy thing will go
away because people are getting smarter or realizing
something, it's absolutely not the case. A large
number of people will always want someone to tell them
that they have everything figured out and others just
don't see how great they are, that they'll wake up
rich and famous one day, that they're powerful, that
they're beautiful, etc. Many will pay to be told this.
Many will pay for subscriptions to become even bigger
and better.As an extreme example, pickup artists had a
wave of success a few years back and people paid big
money for those ridiculous courses. They got replaced
with Andrew Tate style "a real man just smokes and
fights and hates women" type content and people paid
money with the hopes of becoming like them. Trends and
life goals change, but people still gobble up self
help.
|
> > vidarh
I went down a rabbit hole of reading some of the
"pickup artist" material many years ago, and it
was fascinating because there was a whole range
from the really ridiculous "one trick" peddlers
who in some cases probably were proto-Andre Tates
- isogynists who looked for all kinds of
underhanded tactics to trick women and saw it as
justified because they saw things as stacked
against men - to people who were just a hair shy
of more mainstream selfhelp of making yourself
better to be more attractive. On the extreme end
you'd see NLP, hypnosis and in some cases coaches
trying to legitimise things that'd easily cross
into assault. On the "near mainstream" end you'd
see people pushing meditation, exercise, and
mainstream authors on getting better at social
situations (e.g. Dale Carnegie).The former
imploded in the aftermath of Neil Strauss' The
Game, which made some of the popular techniques
well known and/or mocked (e.g. you had Howard on
Big Bang Theory who in the beginning
"demonstrated" several of the more ridiculous
methods) and a lot of the field pivoted towards
closer to regular self-help because the weirder
stuff would get them called out.I wonder to what
extent that contributed to channeling the people
who didn't want to put in the work towards people
like Andrew Tate, with the mockery that followed
and the less extreme coaches in that field moving
away from it leaving a whole bunch of angry young
men ripe for the picking, now with one more bone
to pick.
|
> > > mettamage
I went down that rabbit hole too and actually
improved myself. I recommend Juggler (old
school), Austen Summers and AttractionGym
(Dutch). I would still recommend to use your
common sense though. Not everything they say
is good advice but I find them giving quite
good advice while not being toxic (most of the
time).Though what helped me most was a mix of
being more assertive, meditation and a strong
sense of playfulness.I always went the improv
route, so while I read a lot of mainstream
pickup stuff back then, I was too lazy to use
it. Also, when it was clearly mean then I
didn't do it either (such as negging). It was
fun to get some skill in being cocky and
funny, but ultimately I fell in love with
being playful. Communicating that way is so
much fun, and it's fun to go balls to the wall
creative. Yep, I am in love with a
communication style and way of looking at the
world. So there's that (I also was in love
with learning Italian for a while). But my
default mode is looking at the world in an
analytical and data-driven/empirical way
(while not noticing my irrationality).The more
reasonable dating coaches are still out there.
They simply aren't part of the mainstream
advice.The current mainstream advice about
dating sucks. Though, to be fair: the
mainstream pickup artists from back in the day
also sucked. It's a lot like mining: you dig
through a lot of advice that is plain dirt so
you can find the gems of advice that are
sparsely scattered around the dirt.I gave some
dating advice to some HN'ers. If anyone wants
some, feel free to message me. My email is in
my profile.I am married nowadays (after a few
relationships).What I do find interesting is:
I can turn this part of myself off and then no
woman sees me. Mostly because I lack
initiative and look at the world too
seriously. It's handy because I never get into
weird situations like a certain woman liking
me at work, for example. It also helped when I
didn't know how to break off contact with
someone who I knew wasn't for me.
|
> > > > Levitz
>The more reasonable dating coaches are
still out there. They simply aren't part
of the mainstream advice.I really want to
ask: what would their reputation be if
they were mainstream, in your opinion?I
find it to be a very interesting spot of
culture and society, like at one point you
had a bunch of guys who were dealing with
the cognitive dissonance between what
society asks of men and what society wants
from them in a context that wasn't yet
politicized.It is my impression that when
it started showing up a little bit in the
mainstream, the accusations of misogyny
came, and with that most who actually
cared about misogyny left the boat, in
public terms. So now all we have left is
Tate and the likes.
|
> > > > > vidarh
A lot of the accusations of misogyny
were well founded, but there were also
a lot of people who genuinely just did
struggle with why they couldn't meet
people, and who wanted to genuinely
improve.I think effectively those
coaches who worried most about
reputations to a large extent pivoted
from focusing on the dating aspect to
more general self-improvement, where
dating success might still get
mentioned but without so much focus on
it, and especially not so much focus
on getting sex.There's lots of
mainstream self-help around overcoming
shyness and getting better at
socialising for example that was/is
directly relevant to a lot of people
who struggle with dating, and there
are lots of ways of framing the
non-manipulative, non-creepy parts of
a lot of dating coach advice in ways
that nobody would consider
misoygynist.But, yeah, I think at
least to some extent the attention
given to some of this subculture
unwittingly ended up driving some of
them into the arms of people like
Tate. It's not that there weren't
plenty of those coaches that deserved
negative attention, but the end result
might well have been worse.
|
> > > > > > mettamage
> A lot of the accusations of
misogyny were well founded, but
there were also a lot of people
who genuinely just did struggle
with why they couldn't meet
people, and who wanted to
genuinely improve.Agreed> and
there are lots of ways of framing
the non-manipulative, non-creepy
parts of a lot of dating coach
advice in ways that nobody would
consider misoygynist.Yea,
agreedOne issue is that pickup
artists always framed it as men
seducing women. But quite frankly,
most ideas would also work the
other way around. I remember
talking to some dating coaches who
strongly disagree with me but they
view women too much as women and
men too much as men, whereas my
view is that we're humans first
and our sex/gender second.Viewing
things in such a gendered way was
a factor for misogyny.Back in the
day, I coached a woman to be
better at dating. I taught her
what I knew and she took her own
spin on it and had tons of
fun.Just some examples as to what
is interchangeable:1. Being
playful2. Emotional intelligence3.
Good style4. Cold approaching5.
Disqualification technique (e.g.
what work do you do? I'm a hermit
in the woods and sing to birds all
day - when you are clearly not)6.
Open body language, and the
concept of tonality, body language
and non-verbal communication in
general7. Good logistics such as
having a place of your own, moving
a date to a second or nth location
etc. (this just requires
planning)8. Being able to signal
intent at the right time (I do it
10 to 60 minutes after when the
playful vibe is clearly
established)Women can do these
things too, and it works. This is
just from the top of my dome.
There are many more examples. Such
as being optimistic, adventurous
and genuinely yourself (I know
sounds contradictory, it's a long
topic but yeah works for women who
want to seduce men too).I wouldn't
be surprised if all of this also
works for gay/lesbian people but I
never thought about that.
|
> > > > > > vidarh
The funny thing is that a while
after having spent time reading up
on it but not really tried many of
those techniques, I ran into a
woman in a club who started
running "textbook game" on me, and
in that context reciprocating and
trying out even techniques I'd
never feel comfortable with on
someone who didn't know what was
going on was fun because I could
tell she also immediately
recognised it. It ended up being a
fun dance of back and forth. The
biggest problem with a lot of
those techniques is when one side
isn't aware - and of course that
is often why they were being
thought. But, yeah, the part you
list are all definitely
interchangeable.
|
> > > > > > mettamage
Textbook? So the whole status
dance?The whole status dance was
never my thing.Or more like
playful banter? Those vibes are
super fun, even though I am not
much of a banter guy.> The biggest
problem with a lot of those
techniques is when one side isn't
aware - and of course that is
often why they were being
thought.Seducing someone on pure
technique, while possible, screws
with many things. One of them is
one's self worth, as someone like
that is now dependent on being a
certain way that isn't them.> But,
yeah, the part you list are all
definitely interchangeable.95% of
my whole game is listed there,
haha.
|
> > > > > > vidarh
She started off with a lot of
push-pull and trying to move me
around the venue, and it was very
blatant. Like taking me along to
talk to her friend, and then
brusquely dismissing me only to
come to dance with me minutes
later. If I'd not immediately
recognised what was going on it
would've messed with my head.
Because I did, it was fun. It was
also a very good demonstration of
how fucked up those techniques can
be - she was good at it.
|
> > > > > > mettamage
Sounds like a whirlwind of an
experience! It really becomes a
game when you're both doing
it.Push pull came up naturally
through playfulness so I never
consciously thought about it.
Sometimes it came through
spontaneous ballroom dancing.
There were a few times where I
taught a woman the latin swing. It
feels as push pull but as a
dance.> It was also a very good
demonstration of how fucked up
those techniques can be - she was
good at it.Yea, can relate. I'm
still a fan of women that have a
similar style to my game. My game
is wholesome. Women have mentioned
as much. My wife's style is
similar. The first exchange on
Tinder was awesome, I immediately
yelled "she gets it!" in front of
my computer screen :')
|
> > JimsonYang
agree, there's always going to be a belief for a
majority of people that by reading or doing this
ONE trick, they can avoid the hard work and
sacrifice needed to get to a place/do a taskwe've
seen it with exercise/dieting
we've seen it with women/dating
this types of things always persist
|
> > carlosjobim
How is the bucket, Mr Crab? Personally I admire
all people who want to improve themselves, or
crawl out of a hole, or fix their issues. It's not
easy, and it's not easy to find the right advice
or help.
|
> digitaltrees
Hard disagree. I have read lots of books, participated
in events and training seminars and had profound
results in my life. My marriage is better because of
what I learned, I am a better father and leader
because of what I learned. And the fact that people
sell things as part of that growth journey is how they
support their ability to share the lessons and
techniques.
|
> > myaccountonhn
Self-help books are so often ridiculued, and that
ridicule is often well merited. At the same time
there was a self-help book that basically gave me
a whole different outlook on life, and cured my
depression over night. So I can't deny they have a
place and can really help people.
|
> > > whateverboat
Most of the effective self help advice is
personal advice meets trust means relevance at
that point in life.Same book can be ridiculed
and appreciated by different people, sometimes
even by the same person when they are in
different stages of their life (especially if
they have less self-awareness)."You already
know whether you are in love or not, you just
need to trust this voice."Depending on where
you are in life and who you are as a person,
this statement can simultaneously be called a
platitude, or a meaningful statement that
someone finds allows them to decide what is
important in life at that point.
|
> > > > im3w1l
"You already know" advice amplifies your
existing belief. It's about taking a 60%
confidence guess to a 95% confidence
guess. Stated like that it becomes obvious
that it's appropriate if someone vaguely
suspects the correct thing, but dangerous
if they vaguely suspect the wrong thing.
|
> > > KellyCriterion
> and cured my depression over night.Which
book is it?
|
> > > > brainzap
my book was one by Terry Real. The
excersise to find love for myself was life
changing
|
> > > > > digitaltrees
Please expand! What's the exercise!
|
> > > > > > alexitosrv
He also took a course in baiting
and suspense short stories
|
> > > YinglingHeavy
"Read self-help books until they all start
sounding the same, then move on with your
life"
|
> > JumpCrisscross
Can you share an easy-to-understand example for
someone who is similarly highly sceptical of
self-help products?
|
> > > randycupertino
How to Win Friends and Influence People helped
my career a ton. I stopped having to job
search and started getting pulled up as people
I knew from work advanced they would bring me
with them. I haven't had to job hunt in 9
years and it's solely because that book made
me more likable and personable.It made me
enjoy life more too, because I have a diaspora
of cool and interesting connections who would
go to bat for me if needed. I'm friends with
the grocery store checkout guy now, he asked
me to go antiquing with him two weeks ago. I
made friends in my neighborhood, I have a lady
I walk with every week who offered to help me
garden and even when ordering flooring from
Home Depot the dude invited me to come to
NASCAR with him and his buddies.It honestly
just changed my perspective to see the good in
everyone and through this process boosted my
personal, professional and family
relationships immensely.
|
> > > > delbronski
I too read the book in my younger years,
and it helped me a lot with making friends
and my career. However, the book itself is
filled with some terrible advice for
communicating with people. I realized that
as an older person. But as a young person
it filled me much needed confidence. Like
many of these books, the actual advice is
crap, but I think it gives people the
confidence they need to change something
in their lives they are not happy with.I
highly recommend the podcast: If Books
Could Kill. They have an episode on this
book.
|
> > > > > joshmoody24
As someone who has listened to this If
Books Could Kill episode and read the
actual book, I think the podcast is
mostly looking for problems where
there aren't any. Despite the book's
sleazy title ("influence people") it's
mostly just basic, innocent social
advice.
|
> > > > > > delbronski
The core advice of the book is to
smile, flatter, avoid all
criticism, and feign "genuine"
interest. People can sense this
performance from a mile away. It
is a dated, salesy,
conflict-averse (to the point of
dishonesty) way of communicating.
It is too surface-level to address
real, sustained relationships.
|
> > > > ragequittah
>it's solely because that book made me
more likable and personable.This is the
part that gets me to have an almost
allergic reaction. It feels like an almost
homogenization of people's personalities.
In my mind I picture it like this:
business man A reads How to Win Friends
and Influence People. Businessman B also
reads it. Business man A meets B and see
that they're doing the psychological
tricks of the book and think "wow this guy
sure knows how to win friends and
influence people like I do" so they get
along fantastically.It's similar to my
aversion to books like "The Game" where
some men seem to have the idea there's a
surefire way to pick up women. Humans are
diverse and should have differences in how
they treat others and react. "Remember
their name, smile, talk about the other
person" and all the other tricks often
gets me in the mindset of "this person is
media trained / inauthentic".
|
> > > > > digitaltrees
I would reframe the question you're
asking. Instead of assuming that the
interaction with business man A and B
is fake, that it's done for an
ulterior motive, that it requires
being inauthentic and suppressing your
personality, all of which isn't part
of what makes people connect to each
other ask "but did they enjoy the
experience and make a friend". There
are known interactions patterns that
result in people connecting to each
other. If you want to connect with
others learn how to.And the book "the
game" isn't an example of that skill.
People that follow those techniques
find out quickly that they end up
destroying the connections they make
really quickly.
|
> > > > > K0balt
Except that is not what the book
teaches at all. Sometimes people can't
take the advice of "just be a better
person and care about other people"
unless it's explained to them more
specifically and anchored to their
goals. It's not because they are
inauthentic, it's because they are
lacking skills and understanding.
|
> > > > > > AussieWog93
I actually crashed out
semi-recently about this exact
thing, quit church and all and was
genuinely surprised when the
people who were speaking politeley
to me reached out in a genuine,
non-public and non-coerced way.I
don't think the word "inauthentic"
quite captures why people react
negatively to this sort of
communication.At least part of it
comes from the fact that this
particular style of
"kindness-is-cool-coded" (for lack
of a better word) communication
happens to be the preferred style
of insanely passive-aggressive
people who take it upon themselves
to brutally sabotage anyone who
they deem unacceptable. It can
also feel like you're being lead
on by someone who actively
dislikes you but is too polite to
say it. Or you just start
second-guessing every single thing
they say and do.But honestly,
there's a pretty sizable minority
of people who are repelled by this
type of person and if you're
naturally bad at reading the room
you're probably better off making
friends with other people that say
and do dumb things.I know I went
through a "How to Win Friends and
Influence People" phase when
younger and basically ended up
just putting off a whole of
people.
|
> > > > > > defrost
Culturally many Australians have
an ingrained and likely healthy
aversion to feeling they are being
"handled" or manipulated in some
manner.Likely stems from a hundred
and fifty odd years of the "always
British" types swanning it over
the "this is where we live and we
love it" crowd.
|
> > > > > > K0balt
If your were (never mind presented
as) inauthentic after reading
HTWFAIP your reading comprehension
was lacking. HTWFAIP is about
building authentic, mutually
beneficial relationships with
people, not shining them on. I'm
totally with you about fake
people, but HTWFAIP is not about
that.Aside from being about
forming sincere relationships, it
handles influence with essentially
this advice: Stop trying to force
people to care about what you
want. Understand what they want,
treat them with respect, and align
your request with their
self-interest and self-image. If
you come off as false doing those
things, it's because you didn't
actually do them, you pantomimed
them.
|
> > > > > > ragequittah
I see this as a type of
psychological manipulation. Almost
everyone is interested in other
people's story and the basic human
trait of listening gets you over
that hump. The "and align your
request with their self-interest
and self-image" part is what gets
me. As an off-the-cuff example
that someone might use this advice
to craft:"You're such a generous
person. I know you love being
there for friends. Could you help
me move Saturday?"It's an example
that of course sounds ridiculous
to anybody that reads it, but it's
essentially what the book teaches.
Gather information not even about
the person but how the person
feels about themselves and then
use that as a tool to make them
feel good when you're talking to
them.I suppose it's also not
helped that many of the people
I've met who use this and admire
this book have psychopathic
traits. They're very good at
faking caring but actually can't.
It's a cold calculation to them
and admittedly it's very effective
at getting them ahead.
|
> > > > > > K0balt
I guess if you are feigning
interest it is manipulation, but
the book speaks specifically
against that. If you want to make
friends, you have to be genuinely
interested and invested. If you
want to influence people, you have
to be sincere and aligned. (Modern
politics puts the lie to these
requirements, but that is what the
book teaches)I don't know how you
could read that book in a modern
frame and get syrupy insincerity
out of it in good faith, but it is
true that many people read this
type of book looking for shortcuts
and hacks, so they are not looking
for the good faith reading. If you
read the rest of NH's work, you
will find that his philosophy is
firmly based on genuine good faith
and delivering disproportionally
high value to the people you
interact with. (As well as some
very 19th century metaphysics you
can safely ignore)But yes, many
people read that book, ape the
ideas, and act like asshats. It's
hardly a failing of the book.
|
> > > > > parineum
> Humans are diverse and should have
differences in how they treat others
and react.Even though I agree with
you, that's not a fact and, if a bunch
of people are happy all being exactly
the same, that's great for them. You
can have any amount of ideas about how
things should be but if someone is
happy the way they are, that's what's
important, that's the end goal.
|
> > > > > > ragequittah
I just wonder if some people don't
often get to their end years and
regret putting on an inauthentic
mask their entire life because a
book told them to. Having
dialogues with people like it's a
transaction to win instead of a
conversation.
|
> > > > > > randycupertino
> putting on an inauthentic mask
their entire life because a book
told them to.I think the key
difference- at least for the book
I mentioned - is that it actually
teaches to you take a genuine
interest in those around you. It's
not a mask or a ploy, it is making
you engage positively in a way
that yields genuine connections.
|
> > > > > > ragequittah
If at any point in a natural
conversation you're going to a
trick a book taught you instead of
just speaking your mind I'd argue
it's a mask of a kind.Example: if
at the start of a conversation a
personal anecdote comes to mind
but you think 'no that's not what
the book said, I should talk about
the other person instead' I'd
argue you're masking your natural
persona. If your natural
inclination is to raise an eyebrow
but no that's not what I was
taught smile instead, that's a
mask. You see it often among high
earning people and it's pretty
transparent. Luckily you often
also see people who are not at all
like that everywhere and they're
the ones I'll prefer having a
drink with 10/10 times.
|
> > > > > > huimang
Good thing that's not what the
book is about.
|
> > > > > onoesworkacct
I haven't read it yet, but reading it
is not going to change your
personality. Personality defines how
you receive it.If you change your
entire personality based on a
self-help book.. that probably says a
lot about your personality.And anyway
twin studies make the hardware seem
more impactful than the software in
many ways..
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
Personality is not a static
entity. It's a feedback loop, a
conversation you can have with
yourself to adjust over time. My
brother had intense anxiety in
cars. He applied techniques that
improved his ability to handle the
situation. Saying he has an
anxious personality is ultimately
defeatist and not reflective of
the agency we each possess.And
twin studies, while persuasive
that biology does have a massive
impact are not dispositive
compared to similar studies on
human development theory that has
longer population sizes that show
self dialogue can shape behavior
over time.
|
> > > apatry
Getting Things Done by David Allen gave me a
framework to get out of the weeds when I am
overwhelmed (usually once or twice a year when
I stretch myself): build a to-do list that us
complete enough to stop thinking about what
you have to do, if a new task take less than 5
minutes just do it right away, and then
prioritise the rest.Deep Work by Cal Newport
gave me a way to think about my time
management: information work is not the same
as a factory line where doing the same thing
at similar productivity from 9 to 5 makes
sense, and it is important to dedicate long
stretch of quality time to be productive (vs
busy).There are no silver bullets, but
learning what worked for a group of people,
testing it for myself, adapting it, and using
it as needed has been helpful to me.
|
> > > > coliveira
Yes, I read "Getting Things Done": he
teaches you to make todo lists! That's it,
nothing profound or from another planet.
Basically you could get that information
in 1 paragraph: "if you're overwhelmed,
make a todo list", but he wouldn't have
made a lot of money that way...
|
> > > > > laserlight
That's quite a reductionist view of
Getting Things Done. There's nothing
magic about the system, but someone
had to put it together. It has been
useful to me.
|
> > > > > kamaal
There is more than that, though.
Deadlines, Next Tasks, Weekly list
purge/build, Yearly alignment etc
etc.Also how you teach somebody a
thing matters.Stories have a profound
effect on humans since the earliest of
our days.
|
> > > rustystump
Most self help books can be boiled down to
very obvious tools and coping strategies. If
it is the first time you have come across the
concepts, it can be useful but if it isnt, it
is useless.Is paying 15$ too much to pay? If
learning about an obvious but unknown idea for
doing the things saves 10 minutes a week, it
is.Do you need to pay 15$ for the result? No.
But a result is better than no result.
|
> > > sanswork
After reading digital minimalism I did the
digital declutter process and found a lot of
extra space in my life once I removed
distractions that felt "essential" but didn't
actually miss once they were gone. I also
found other things that were low
value/distractions that I still wanted in my
life so I've just accepted them(like browsing
reddit occasionally during the day though I've
changed it so I don't comment on reddit
anymore since that ties me to a feeling of
wanting to check responses/look for
upvotes/etc)
|
> > > digitaltrees
1. Fact vs interpretation. Many things we
think of as facts are really our narrative
interpretations that are incomplete. A few
self help books talk about the story of 4
blind men that are asked to interact with an
object: one says it's a snake, one says it's a
tree, one says it's a wall, one says it's a
flag. Their interpretations are all wrong,
it's an elephant trunk, leg, body and ear. So
when someone says my boss was unfair and mean,
that's not a fact, it's a narrative
interpretation, for all you know they are
committed to mentoring you and sometimes that
requires trial by fire. Drill Sargent, medical
residency, and many professions have converged
on that type of training. It's much easier to
stay connected to a spouse, child or coworker
when you are operating on the assumption that
your beliefs and their beliefs might both be
equally valid. The righteousness of having
"the facts" destroys a relationship. It's not
that there aren't facts or right answers but a
little humility as a finite being has a lot of
benefits.2. Dispute resolution. There is a
three step process that transforms how you
fight. A) what did I do to contribute, B) what
I'll do different next time, C) I am sorry and
I'll do X to make amends. When you do this you
stop blaming others, which is what causes
defensiveness, escalation, and the cascade of
in tractable conflict. When you lead with this
you'll be amazed that your counter party feels
heard, seen, validated, and connected to you
and all of the sudden stops attacking,
defending and starts to listen.3.
Characterization. In our lives we often define
people based on aspects of their personality
that are incomplete. The problem is that
stunts their growth and limits the depth of
the relationship. So the "ambitious" daughter,
"funny" son, "techy" coworker gets defined as
only that and can't break out of it in
relation to the person characterizing them. So
when the ambitious kid has a failure they turn
to the parent for support and get
characterized instead treated like a human
being that can change. So when an "ambitious"
kid says I don't want to go to university are
they suddenly not ambitious? Are they allowed
to redefine themselves? There are entire
categories of books written by people with a
chip on their shoulder because they were
characterized.I did a leadership training that
had a session on purpose. They discussed the
Harvard study that followed people over their
lives and careers and their reported sense of
wellbeing. The clear trend of what creates
fulfillment at the end of life makes it hard
to dwell on a lot of what most people suffer
for during different phases of life. I have
seen people in college, law school, early
careers, doing startups, being parents, even
all grinding it out and then looking back with
the realization they were and remain
miserable.I could keep going and going and
going.
|
> > > > seizethecheese
Kudos for delivering.#1 sounds a lot like
stoicism.
|
> > > > > digitaltrees
Question for you, is my handle orange?
I realized my company went stale after
a pivot. Just curious if that is
reflected on HN.I was recently
surprised by a bookface status change
:) might need to reach out to say "hey
still alive just not in the original
form".
|
> > > > > > seizethecheese
I'm colorblind but it looks either
orange or green, not normal color
|
> > > > > > sethammons
Diff person here. Your handle is
not orange, it is grey. I have not
seen an orange handle. Grey or
green (green for new accounts).
|
> > jasonfarnon
"because of what I learned." Do these
books/seminars actually teach you something new
about being married or a father, that you didn't
know before? Like what? I always figured they were
more about coaching, persuasion, convincing. To
the extent I've scanned them, I never saw any kind
of new fact, definitely not about something like
being married.
|
> > > thepryz
I view self help books in a similar light as
management books. They're usually not going to
teach me anything new. What they will do is
present something I already know, in
potentially new ways and new contexts that
allow me to contemplate them and keep them
more front of mind. I tend to think of it
almost like right thought right action. It's
also worth noting that sometimes you just need
to be at the right moment in time for a lesson
to resonate and stick so reading such books
can provide more opportunity for that to
happen.I do, however, try to limit who and
what I read though because there is a lot of
derivative garbage out there.
|
> > > > phlsa
Exactly that.I also think of reading
self-help books (or management books) as
giving myself time to engage with the
subject. Even if there is no
groundbreaking new information, it gives
me time to think about the topic. If you
couldn't tell yet, I'm a slow reader.
|
> > > > > nmcfarl
I am not a slow reader, but I realized
what you did - that these books give
me a chance to engage with the topic
and if I spend enough time with a
subject, I might learn something from
myself even if I learn zero from the
actual book.My solution to this
problem is to set these books next to
one of the two comfy chairs in the
house. When I sit in one of these
chairs, I consider whether I want to
read a chapter, I can only read one
chapter, I can only have two of these
books going at one time.And under the
system it takes me about three months
to finish one of the books up from
less than a week. I also find I no
longer hate• most of them and I
learn a lot more.• they still have a
very high DNF rate.
|
> > > sanswork
I'm definitely a better father because of a
bunch of the self help books I've read. Things
like better ways to communicate with my son,
more effective ways to transfer knowledge,
encourage independence, etc. Other areas of my
life have definitely improved too though I
agree when people say most self help books
could be a blog post and in cases where it's
an expansion of a blog post I'll generally
just go read that.With these types of
books(and I read a lot of self help) I
generally expect to get like 1-2 good pieces
of advice/ideas per 200 pages so I generally
just scan through them until I hit areas that
seem high value then read those areas more
deeply. I've read all of Tim Ferriss' books
and haven't really gotten anything I can think
of from his stuff to be honest they are a bit
too general for me but I've gotten some good
advice from his podcast though I only listen
to maybe one episode in 10 when it is with
someone or about something that sounds very
interesting and even then I tend to scrub
through it since there is a lot of filler in a
2 hour podcast.
|
> > > > rfc3092
Please share "better father" books.
|
> > > > > AnimalMuppet
Here's the problem: You can be a bad
father by being too strict, or you can
be a bad father by being too
lenient.In Zion National Park there's
a hike called Angel's Landing. You
wind up on this ridge, with a 1000
foot cliff on one side and a 500 foot
cliff on the other side. And the ridge
is not very wide - only a couple of
feet in some places.Parenting is like
that. You think, oh, I see people
causing problems by being too strict,
so I want to back away from that
cliff. But there's a cliff behind you,
so don't back too far...And the
problem with parenting books is that,
if you're the kind of parent who needs
the books warning you about being too
strict, then the books that warn
against being too lenient are probably
the ones that resonate more with you.
That is, you're drawn to the ones you
don't need, not to the ones that you
do need.All that said, yes, get books
and read them. Be sure to get a
variety of them.I can't give specifics
off the cuff, as I'm well past that
phase now.
|
> > > > > > frankosaurus
Well stated.I read Nurture Shock
before my kids were born. One of
its main arguments is to praise
effort rather than natural
abilities ("you worked hard"
rather than "you're smart"). Being
one who naturally withholds
praise, its message of not
over-praising resonated with me.In
retrospect, I should have praised
kid #1 more. It took me 10+ years
to realize that. The book was not
wrong but also not the message I
needed.
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
I am definitely of the same
generation. I notice my mom will
praise my kid's intelligence while
we praise their effort. But I've
definitely noticed my son responds
to praise about ability more than
my daughter and likely would
appreciate more praise than
her.What did you notice and what
were the consequences of the
strategy of praise. I'd like to
learn from your experience.
|
> > > > > > genxy
I really enjoyed this 'Newel of
Knowledge' video on how to deliver
praise w/o triggering someones BS
detector
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-
ZE601hf28tl;dw celebrate don't
manipulate.I have noticed that my
daughter responds so much better
to compliments like, "I am really
impressed how you handled
situation X, you stuck up for
yourself in a way that doesn't
alienate yourself with your
friends. I know how hard that is
to do well ..." When I give the
reason for the praise it doesn't
come off, intended or not as "you
did good for a kid." I don't do it
everytime, but sometimes the
praise works to give another
reflective or metacognitive pass
over the event.
|
> > > > > > frankosaurus
Praise is a verbal activity. And
while words definitely matter, I
think holistic encouragement is
needed. Pats on the back, hugs,
and periodic ambient physical
presence when the kid is working
on a new skill.Children the
Challenge chapter 3 discusses
encouragement.All this stuff
should be done tastefully and
without being overbearing. Like
the previous poster said, it's a
balance.
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
Totally agree especially since
each kid is different and responds
to the same technique differently.
But there are common things like
attachment theory, boundaries
creating safety, the tactics of
repair after conflict.
|
> > > > > murkt
"Never Split the Difference", which is
a book about how to successfully
communicate with terrorists. Very
suitable for talking with kids!I've
even read aloud a few chapters to my
kids, because it's very suitable for
communication with parents as well
|
> > > > > > Fantosism
I mean this with the purest
intentions. I've read Never Split
the Difference, Never Eat Alone,
Getting More, How to Win Friends
and Influence People, etc. How do
you get it to feel like it's not
manipulation? I get all of these
books advertise not to lie, but at
the end of the day, I'm reshaping
my speech to achieve a certain
goal, rather than to convey facts.
The best line I've come up with is
something like: am I serving the
other person's actual interests,
and would I be fine with them
seeing exactly what I'm doing?
Honest persuasion seems to survive
that test; manipulation usually
needs the other person not to
notice. Curious how you draw this
line? Keep in mind I don't have
kids, so haven't really ventured
into white lie territory being a
necessity.
|
> > > > > > runako
> I'm reshaping my speech to
achieve a certain goal, rather
than to convey facts.When
communicating, you don't simply
recite every datum you know. You
edit, you choose facts to
communicate a specific set of
points. Those points themselves
are not random; they are in
service of helping you achieve
some goal (to get someone to
laugh, or to get someone to do/not
do something, or to change
someone's opinion of you, to make
someone feel comfortable, to get a
person to bond with you, or
whatever).> am I serving the other
person's actual interestsThis is
the key.> would I be fine with
them seeing exactly what I'm
doingSee my first paragraph.
Nobody thinks you are reciting
facts at random when you talk to
them. QED to the extent anyone
thinks about it, they understand
that you are trying to advance
some agenda (drop the connotation
on that word). Because this is how
human communication works.
|
> > > > > > bildung
Many people, especially in the
tech field, have false perceptions
about the inner workings of the
human brain. We aren't rational
automatons receiving exactly the
data that has been sent out by the
other automatons. That's for a
multitude of reasons, the most
obvious of that is the fact that
only a very miniscule part of our
thought is conscious (about 2% is
the last number I've read about
it). Even the fundamental inner
workings of the brain differ from
the idea you alluded to. Our brain
isn't just a parser interpreting
the data we receive - instead it
is a black box constantly
predicting what happens next, and
only uses sensory input, both from
the outside and from the inside of
the body, to validate or falsify
the prediction [1]. One of the
obvious side effects if this is
for example our tendency to ignore
facts that don't fit to our
current worldview.So if I know
that these things are as they are,
and use them to communicate more
successfully, is that
manipulation? Then it would also
be learning manipulation if kids
are sent to school to learn how to
write well, or how to do a
presentation.I had a situation
with my kid a while ago. They were
already tired, but had to take a
shower. When I proposed that
verbally, they denied. Then I
showed them the warm water coming
out of the showerhead, and they
instantly agreed. So I got what I
wanted (the kid getting clean),
because I knew how to communicate
successfully. But that isn't
manipulation: I didn't lie, I
didn't have a personal advantage
at their cost etc. I just made it
easier for them to anticipate what
taking a shower would feel like.So
perhaps the distinction should be:
If I can honestly and
wholeheartedly argue to myself
that my intentions are to the best
of all participants, then that is
communication. If I only care
about my outcome, or even want to
have adverserial outcome for the
others, then that is
manipulation.But we can't use "not
noticing" some mode of
communication as part of the
definition of manipulation simply
because we all notice almost
nothing consciously, compared to
the sensory input we get every
second of our lifes.[1] A pretty
approachable book about that,
written from a researcher: How
emotions are made, from Lisa
Feldman Barret
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
Exactly this. And I'll share a
similar comment. I found myself
repeating instructions to my 4
year old ans getting frustrated. I
watched a parenting video that
suggested getting down on her
physical level and gently touching
her shoulder to get her attention.
The theory being when she is
focused on something fun or
interesting she literally can't
hear me or shift her attention.It
worked the first time and has
reduced my own emotional reaction
and create much more peace.And
while I won't suggest it will work
for everyone or this is a
scientific process with sufficient
information (but should be
explored) I find resources like
this useful.
|
> > > > > > tarsinge
At their core all these self help
books are not teaching you how to
reshape your speech, but emotional
intelligence. They are teaching
better understanding of other and
yourself. You can then use this
understanding to have more
fulfilling relations, or more
easily manipulate others if you
are less well intentioned. The
line is very easy to draw, being
honest is natural, you say the
truth and are open to genuinely
understand and build on the other
person responses. On the other
hand manipulating takes a very
different mindset of faking being
open to what others are saying.
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
I think you're on the right track.
Manipulation is overriding
someone's will in service of your
motives. Persuasion is offering
new information, while respecting
their autonomy to make their own
choice. So you are right that
intention matters a lot. And the
reason it matters is that your
commitment to their wellbeing is
an investment in the relationship
which is a mutual interaction over
time not a single event.That's
also why authenticity and honesty
matter. If you lie to your
children or spouse or colleague
they might do what you want one
time but over time not trust you.
If you are inauthentic they will
also learn that you have ulterior
motives and become distrustful.The
last thing I'll say is it's not
always a negotiation. With young
kids or direct reports there is
elevation in the relationship,
meaning one person gets to make
the decision and the other gets to
follow the instructions. So when a
toddler is saying I don't want to
brush my teeth if you treat it
like a negotiation you actually
make them less secure about their
place in the world because they
aren't ready to make every
decision for themself. One good
technique I learned is to simply
present two choices. "You can
brush your teeth or let me brush
your teeth". That's very different
than "let's go brush your teeth"
which can be answered yes or no.
So it's not always necessary to
engage in persuasion. Sometimes
framing is all you need.
|
> > > > > > Cthulhu_
I've often felt the same way; I've
read some of these and (think I)
can spot people using those
learned things a mile away, and it
immediately raises my hackles up.
Management and sales people
especially. Touch my shoulder or
try to shake my hand palm-down
just raise alarm bells.But that's
the other side of these books,
understanding "the other side" of
people.I like to believe it all
adds up to a big pile of knowledge
that finds its place in one's
personality / outwards behaviour.
But to more observant,
introspective, overthinking,
possibly neurodiverse people, it
just adds to a giant pile of
social behaviours that some people
seem to have naturally while
others have learned / are forcing
them.Doing them costs me energy
and makes me feel underhanded /
ungenuine. At the same time maybe
doing it more often will make them
feel natural? I have no idea.
|
> > > > > > murkt
Touching shoulders and shaking
hands palm-down is "persuasion"
bullshit.Can't say anything about
other books, but Never Split the
Difference is about hearing and
understanding other peoples's
wants and opinions. Not this
pickup-artist-like bullshit.
|
> > > > > > swiftcoder
> but at the end of the day, I'm
reshaping my speech to achieve a
certain goal, rather than to
convey facts.The idea that the
only goal of communication is to
convey facts is (charitably) a
pretty autistic view of
interpersonal relationships.There
are many situations where
conveying facts is not the primary
goal, and there's a world of
difference just in how facts are
conveyed. Facts probably aren't
going to stop your toddler
screaming for ice cream. Telling
your wife that dress makes her
look fat likely isn't going to
help either one of you. Calling
out a coworker when they are wrong
isn't going to improve your
working relationship. And so on...
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
Humans convey emotion and thoughts
in conversation. We have mirror
neurons that literally model an
approximation of the internal
mental state of the person you are
talking to.Facts won't stop a
toddler crying for ice cream. But
a clear unmoving boundary conveyed
with love stops the intensity of
their request and allowing them to
have the sadness and anger at
being told no and treating them
with kindness and love even while
they are expressing big feelings
of disappointment creates a
trusting, safe relationship.
|
> > > > > > murkt
I've genuinely read only Never
Split the Difference from your
list, and it's kind of the
opposite from manipulation.The
book teaches how to actually hear
people even in the very
emotionally charged situations,
how to properly ask them questions
to understand their point of view
and their needs.If I understand my
son's needs and can give him what
he wants in exchange of him giving
me what I want, how is that a
manipulation? I can yell at him,
impose sanctions (eg no minecraft
for two days) and we both will be
greatly dissatisfied. Or we can
both get what we want, which is a
win-win.
|
> > > > > > Fantosism
I think we're describing different
halves of the same book.I don't
have a problem with generally
understanding someone's needs. You
ask what he wants, you say what
you want, you both find a common
middle ground.But that's not what
I'm worried about. He also teaches
you things like give gifts to
instill a sense of reciprocity.
Use odd numbers so it appears as
if you've put in research to
arrive at this figure. "Bend
reality" by moving around
deadlines. Take advantage of
cognitive biases like loss
aversion.Actual empathy is one
thing, steering someone into
thinking that your preferred
outcome was their own idea is
another. And that steering is
precisely the manipulation I can't
shake off. I'd be fine with the
other person knowing I'm actually
empathizing. But all those other
techniques rely on the other
person not noticing, which falls
into my definition of
manipulation.
|
> > > > > > murkt
Yeah, probably different halves of
the book. I've read it a few years
ago, and it looks like I've just
ignored/forgot all that "bending
reality" stuff. It's not my cup of
tea, so I remembered only the good
parts of it
|
> > > > > > Imustaskforhelp
I have read How to Win friends and
Influence People and I haven't
felt like its manipulation.[I can
be wrong and I usually am ;)] but
the book teaches just some way to
better re-phrase your best
intentions and I have started to
think the phrases in my
head...Just be honest with people
is what that book taught me. I
highly recommend people reading
it.Now I will be honest that
reading the book itself isn't
gonna give you something. It
depends highly on variety of
factors. For example, the book
also teaches to listen more often
and I genuinely try to do it as
well but I sometimes fail to do
that as I am a bit
expressive/talkativeI think it
also depends on who you are and
how the book reinforces some
particular topics. You dont have
to completely do everything the
book says to have meaningful
impact as then it would feel
manipulative to other person,
yea.And at the very least, reading
this books makes you aware of some
logic behind what he's saying (for
example. I speak a lot but I
should listen more, because people
like me are so many and everyone
likes to speak and be heard but
people who actually listen are
rare)and then I can realize that I
am speaking too much and so I
think that I am more aware.More
Awareness of a topic doesn't mean
complete and utter mastery of it
but long term persistence of that
awareness helps out
meaningfully.TLDR: Just be
yourself and see if something
sticks from the books and to
implement it slowly and the way
you like. There isn't one perfect
way (not one even in the books) to
living life. At best, its
collection of what other
successful people are doing. I
wouldn't suggest (completely)
living off the books because you
have your own life and way of
living it and you should be honest
about it to yourself as well.
|
> > > > > > vincnetas
Read AI summary what "Never Split
the Difference" is about. And its
a bit scary that you think its
suitable for talking with kids.
Its pure manipulation technique.
If you need to do this to your its
most likely you were unable to
create a real connection with them
before.
|
> > > > > > murkt
Please read the actual book, it's
kind of the opposite from
manipulation. You can read more
detailed answers in the near
branch of comments.
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
Thank you for proving Tim Ferris
right and showing that AI actually
degrades the knowledge adding a
second order harm to human
society.The tactics themselves are
morally neutral. They can be used
to manipulate or elevate another
person whose well being you are
deeply committed to, the intention
behind the tactics are what
determines if it is manipulation
or connection/persuasion.
|
> > > > > sanswork
The self driven child was one I just
finished 2 weeks ago that I really
enjoyed and felt had a lot of good
advice that ran counter to my natural
tendencies.The How to talk books(there
are a few of them for different ages),
no drama discipline.Cal Newports books
while not specifically about parenting
have helped me with disconnecting more
from my tech which has always been a
challenge since it's my job and a part
of a lot of my hobbies which has
definitely led to being a better
father.
|
> > > > > > digitaltrees
Thanks for the recs. I'll check
them out. I am reading "How to
raise humans" right now. Not far
enough in to have an opinion yet.
|
> > > > > > sanswork
No worries, I have "Outdoor kids
in an indoor world" next that I'm
really looking forward to since I
struggle with being an indoor dad
despite being the type of kid that
would leave the house in the
morning on my bike and be back at
night and went camping every
couple weekends. I'll have a look
at yours.
|
> > > > > monknomo
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen (and
How to Listen so Kids Will Talk) is
excellent
|
> > > DrewADesign
Only hard facts change your
perspective?Lacking happiness or charisma or
confidence or the ability to quit smoking or
any other run-of-the-mill self-help topic
isn't caused by a lack of relevant data: it's
a matter of perspective. Often, the best way
to push through the problem is getting the
perspective of someone that's thought about it
more. Whether self help books are an effective
medium for that is another topic, but if
they're not, lacking hard facts wouldn't be
the problem.
|
> > > jayers
Self help usually doesn't teach you anything
that is new. Usually they just repackage the
same common sense that you've heard a million
times before in a new way. That doesn't mean
it is useless though, I have had my own life
changed by several self help/business
books.Sometimes you just need someone to tell
you common sense in the right way so that you
actually listen to it.
|
> > > > digitaltrees
You don't come out of the womb with common
sense. And you don't know all common sense
possible.
|
> > > > nephihaha
What if you are raised in a toxic
environment? Many are. The news media is
also packaged in such a way as to cause
fear, alarm and misery. Sometimes you have
to break free of that. There is a lot of
bad advice out there especially in the
modern world.
|
> > > matwood
> Do these books/seminars actually teach you
something new about being married or a father,
that you didn't know before?Maybe you were
born with all the knowledge necessary to be a
good father/husband, but I certainly wasn't. I
imagine most people just have their parents to
go off of, and we all know what a can of worms
that can be.
|
> > > > noufalibrahim
I'd wager that most people have just their
parents to go off of and a few
recallibrate using their own experiences,
learning, and introspecting about them.
Those are the few to whom books and
seminars are useful as sources.I think,
for a large number of people, self-help
(especially the short form high intensity
style content that influencers post is
just "content" to "consume" - a form of
cheap entertainment that's thrown out
almost as soon as it's consumed. There's
no enduring change. That takes time and an
semi-innate desire to change. Then, all
these things become sensible and
useful.I'm not a big fan of Ferris but I'm
willing to bet that someone who sits down
with one of his books and works through it
slowly applying the lessons to his or her
own life will see some kind of change as
opposed to the typical person who just
asks an LLM to summarise the book or a
video about it and then decides that
they've changed.
|
> > > digitaltrees
Yes. I learned new techniques like: victim vs
author perspective. wife and I did a training
where she went first, learned the the
technique (tell a story of a fight like you
are the most sympathetic victim then tell it
again like you were the author) and it
immediately shifted both of our perspectives
about a conflict we hadn't been able to
resolve for 6 months because she told both
versions and immediately understood where I
was coming from. I am personally grateful we
both know that technique now.
|
> > > eru
> Do these books/seminars actually teach you
something new about being married or a father,
that you didn't know before? Like what?I'm as
skeptical as you are, but teaching you
something you didn't know before ain't the
only channel they could conceivable help
through.Eg reading their bible can help a
devout christian, even though there's nothing
in there they didn't already know.
|
> > > n4r9
It's "learning how to..." rather than
"learning that...". Good self-help books can
provide a framework to understand how your own
childhood development influences your current
behaviours, and how you can work to change.
I'm currently reading "Parenting from the
Inside Out" which goes into both the
psychology and neurology of the developing
brain, and explains how insecure childhood
attachment can propagate across generations. I
have a mixture of dismissive/avoidant and
anxious attachment thought patterns, and it's
been helpful to put this into context by
reflecting on my own childhood and where they
might have come from. Those patterns gradually
feel less like something I'm "stuck with" and
more like something I can challenge and
master.
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> > > > digitaltrees
That's awesome personal insight. My next
door neighbors are childhood psychologists
and when my daughter was 18 months old I
mentioned I was trying to be very
intentional about creating secure
attachment and the things I was doing to
facilitate it. They said in a very
supportive and amused tone "oh it's too
late, the attachment window has closed by
now" then after a long pause said "she is
fine and clearly has secure attachment to
you and her mom"By I myself have done a
lot of work to understand ways to shift
attachment styles similar to yours.
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> > > kqr
I recently read Attia's Outlive which is about
what sort of lifestyle makes one more
resilient against diseases of old age.I'm not
in a position to verify more than a few of the
factual claims made by the author (and a lot
of it sounds like mumbo-jumbo), but it was
persuasive enough to get me to exercise for
health (instead of performance at a specific
event) and my life has gotten much easier
since I came to that realisation. Maybe I
would have done so eventually without the
book, but I'm glad the book sped the process
up.
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> > > > lotsofpulp
>it was persuasive enough to get me to
exercise for healthWhy was this one guy
more persuasive than the recommendation of
basically every medical organization in
the world?Also, his correspondence with
Epstein is quite damning.
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> > > > > kqr
Mainly that the advice was more
structured, maybe?Note that I was
exercising before, only I didn't do it
for health. But I also didn't suffer
from any obvious problems. What I got
out of every medical organisation in
the world then is "You're fine. Don't
worry about it."I was probably fine,
but I'm even more fine now; I'm
capable of doing more of the things I
enjoy.
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> > > > > > lotsofpulp
> What I got out of every medical
organisation in the world then is
"You're fine. Don't worry about
it."This is alien to me, because
for at least 50 years now, heart
disease and diabetes has been at
the forefront of basically every
developed country's health
problems, for which the only
solution proposed by all health
authorities has been to eat less
and healthier, and to do
cardiovascular exercise almost
every day. Even from elementary
school, I remember being taught in
gym or health class that being
active and exercising was
necessary for long term health.
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> > > > > > Levitz
I think there's a bit of a
"marketing" failure happening in
this context.I've been exercising
for most of my life, I'm the guy
that has been going to the gym
since forever to many of my
acquaintances, and so they have
often talked to me about how they
want to start exercising or how
they are doing etc.Nobody, and I
mean nobody has ever said anything
like "I'm so happy to decrease my
risk of diabetes". My father
stopped smoking and started riding
a bike, motivated by
cardiovascular health, what
actually makes him happy though is
to be able to go up the stairs
without breaking into a sweat.Ask
anyone in a gym why they exercise,
they will talk about health, just
not in the way doctors do. The
stick of "You will die in 20 years
rather than 35" pales in
comparison of the carrot of "you
will feel better basically all the
time"
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> > > coliveira
What I find funny is people saying in social
media that they read dozens of books, and when
you see what they're reading is mostly
self-help volumes! If you read one or two of
these books you already know what they'll say
in 100s of others. It's very similar to
religious books: the content is always the
same, they just rearrange things so people
will continue consuming more of the same
ideas.
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> > > TeMPOraL
Knowledge has to come from somewhere. Not
everyone has perfect parents to couch them on
marriage and parenthood.
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> > > groundzeros2015
Yes. I think about a few framings from books
all the time.
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> > > Fr0styMatt88
I mean I can see it. Books are just a way to
transmit one's thoughts and experiences to
other people. So it's no different to being
exposed to someone with a different viewpoint.
Common sense isn't common or innate, it's
tribal knowledge.There's that XKCD about
someone learning something new that was just
thought to be something everyone knew.Also you
don't know what you don't know.Agree though -
coaching and persuasion are a huge part which
is why I think a lot of these books seem
'fluffy' if all you're wanting is a collection
of facts.
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> > keybored
I reach for my revolver when someone says that
they are a better leader. That might mean that
they have a captive audience of sycophants.The
outdated sense of leader of the willingly lead is
a different matter.
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> > > digitaltrees
Why such a strong reaction? Do you think good
leaders exist?I have received multiple emails
from alumni thanking me for my leadership,
mentorship, and the culture I created. Leading
is a skill like any other it can be improved
with practice and I have worked hard at it.My
team has no problem disagreeing with me and
knows I don't want sycophantic agreement, they
know that even if I ultimately make a decision
I will consider all opinions and have seen me
change my mind in response to a direct report
disagreeing with me in public.There are known
mechanisms to foster a safe and effective
environment like that such as separating
people from ideas, removing consequences for
failure and commitment to experimentation.
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> > > > keybored
There's not much to it. There's a
difference between performed N and N as
reported by the performer.
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> > > > > mettamage
Why reach for a gun? You want to kill
people that proclaim to be better
leaders because of a self-help book? I
know people drew guns for less but
this is the first time I am reading
something like this on HN.I'd suggest
you'd read a few books so that you
don't have to reach for your gun but
can use your words instead. Though the
moment you'd claim any of those books
helped you will be a bit of an ironic
moment but so be it.I recommend
Non-violent Communication by Rosenberg
for you. It got me out of a few
pickles (arguments). Also going to a
meditation retreat helps.
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> > > > > > keybored
Thanks for the laugh wizard of
Metta.
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> > > > > > digitaltrees
You shouldn't laugh off the
recommendation. That is a good
book. I haven't read it personally
but it affected my life deeply.My
wife and I both grew up in
physically violent homes. My mom
read that book and taught me and
my siblings the lessons along with
others. And my children have only
ever experienced shouting or
physical violence when they went
to their grandparents house.I
understand you were using that
phrase as hyperbole and did really
mean it but there is a lot of
evidence that the language we use
shapes our prefrontal cortex and
limbic system responses in every
moment. By using that phrase
you're subtlety sending your body
and brain and anyone that read
that into an anxious fight or
flight response. That shuts down
the ability to listen, persuade or
connect. It triggers
defensiveness, avoidance etc.So
even though you have a valid point
lot of bad leaders exist, and
often claim loudly to be good
leaders with no self awareness of
their actual weaknesses. Its hard
to listen when a rhetorical gun
has been drawn.
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> > > > > > mettamage
> That is a good book.I remember I
had a bit of a relationship crisis
with someone. Just learning the 10
min. TL;DR of a good friend of
mine who was well versed in it
helped a ton. Later I read it
twice.Sometimes I think I can get
away with and flow on intuition.
In tense conversations that
sometimes go sideways and then I
notice I have to use this way of
communicating in order to keep
things from not spiraling out of
control and ultimately resolve
things.
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> > > > > > keybored
Thank you for a thoughtful reply.
To my reading you demonstrate that
you listened, even though I didn't
give you much to work with
considering my curt[1] comments,
and these resources look
helpful.But I don't understand the
problem with this phrase. Maybe
it's an ESL (second lang.) issue,
because I have only read one
author that I recall that has used
this phrase (poverty of
stimulus?). But to my mind it
isn't even hyperbole. It's just an
expression saying "I am on my
guard now". Which means that you
are skeptical, maybe even cynical.
Yes, the immediate interpretation
is that someone is reaching for
their holster-not to shoot but to
anticipate an ambush. But even
that is just, you know, colorful
in this context. In this context I
am intending to express that I am
skeptical. Not that someone is
trying to fool me. But I am on
guard against just taking
someone's experiences at face
value; that their lifeworld is
such-and-such is not even under
debate, that is fine and no one is
doubting that. What is under doubt
in this context is what the
proverbial room looked like when
only one out of five people
reported on it. Does that make
sense?[1] in sense 1(a) according
to Merriam Webster
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> > > > > > mettamage
Makes sense.> But to my mind it
isn't even hyperbole. It's just an
expression saying "I am on my
guard now".I'm Dutch, so English
is a second language. I started at
7.To me it comes across as
hyperbole or something literal.
Maybe different for native English
speakers. Though I haven't heard
my American family in law using
it. And they say, to take some
inspiration from you, all kinds of
colorful things and I'd expect
them to say stuff like this.I
don't live in the US with my wife
though, so maybe I didn't have
enough interactions with them. I
will ask her.
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> > > adaml_623
Tell us about this good leader concept and why
you think it's outdated? Is it just
uncommon?And why can't you believe someone's
statement about themselves? How is it
different to saying they're a good runner?
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> > > > keybored
Thank you for demonstrating leadership on
this topic. Maybe that illustrates the
point.
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> > Npovview
I agree with you. Self-help industry has evolved
to cover lot of nuanced topics. Depression,
anxiety adjacent topics. Once the basics are
recognized, the other aspects like what to expect
when you grow old. what to expect after retirement
etc.How to care less about what other people
think, but in a healthy
wayhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uyR_cXGBMY
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> > ubercore
Willing to bet the fact that you went looking to
improve is the thing that made the difference, not
anything you learned from those seminars.
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> > dartharva
Pretty sure that's a result of the larger gestalt
driven more by your own drive and savviness to
seek new ideas on living than the books
themselves, as it is for everyone who claims to
have benefited. If the books are gone today and
only LLMs remain, nothing will change in this
front.
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